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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7211
   |
Posted - 2014.03.08 12:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, I won't go into detail as to why dual tanking will be the best option in 1.8 because there is already an excellent thread by Arkena Wyrnspire about it.
Here, take a look: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146201
[Introduction]:
Dual tanking is the act of having both a strong shield and a strong armor tank to bump the total eHP (Effective Hit Points) of a suit to ludicrous proportions, way above the intended numbers.
This causes lack of diversity, as people rarely use the utility modules that having one type of tank opens up, as well as pushing suits outside of their intended role (1000 eHP scouts are going to be possible), similar to how sharpshooter back in the closed beta would push weapons outside of their intended role.
In EVE, having a single strong tank works much better than having two weak tanks. The main two ways CCP Reykjavik achieves this is by having restrictive CPU/PG requirements on tank modules, so you can either have one strong stank or two weak tanks, and by having useful utility modules on both medium (high in DUST) and low slots, so if you have two weak tanks you also don't get the utility you would otherwise get.
[A step in the right direction?]:
Looking at the scouts and heavies in 1.8, their CPU/PG seems to be balanced in this way:
Armor tanking suits get higher PG but lower CPU
Shield tanking suits get higher CPU but lower PG
That means that armor tanking suits can fit an armor tank very well, since it is PG intensive, while fitting a shield tank would be problematic. And the same only in reverse for shield tanking, as shields are CPU intensive.
This looks like a step in the right direction, but considering that even while having lower CPU on armor suits, they still have more CPU than we have now, and vice versa on shield suits, that only begins to solve the dual tanking problem.
Fitting both types will still be relatively easy.
[Solution 1 of 2 - CPU/PG]:
CCP needs to increase the CPU/PG requirements of armor modules and shield modules to much higher numbers than they are right now.
This would mean that having two tank types would require to have two weak tanks.
Here are some suggested numbers, using scouts as a baseline:
Quote: Armor Plates:
Basic Armor Plates: 20 CPU / 7 PG
Advanced Armor Plates: 30 CPU / 10 PG
Complex Armor Plates: 40 CPU / 15 PG
Shield Extenders:
Basic Shield Extender: 34 CPU / 4 PG
Advanced Shield Extender: 50 CPU / 6 PG
Complex Shield Extender: 70 CPU / 9 PG
[Solution 2 of 2 - Utility Modules]:
Utility modules (Armor Repairers, Shield Rechargers, Shield Energizers, Shield Regulators, any other module that doesn't affect eHP or damage) should have lower CPU/PG requirements than HP modules, and should have logical locations.
I will not suggest logical CPU/PG requirements for utility modules, as there are too many, but in general they should be low - medium.
Currently, modules are scattered wherever, with a heavy imbalance towards low slots.
This would mean that in the new system, shield tankers would enjoy a wide range of utility modules to use while armor tankers would be forced into either modules that don't fit their role, or dual tanking. (For the most part)
Here are some suggested moves for modules:
Quote:
Scan Precision - Low slot (Caldari Scout is a scanner suit, hence this utility module should be moved there)
Profile Dampeners - High slot (Gallente scout is a stealth suit, hence this utility module should be moved there)
Cardiac Regulators - High Slot (Amarr get high stamina and stamina regen, hence the locaiton)
Myobirfil Stimulants - Low slot (Minmatar Scout is a melee suit, hence the move)
PG Upgrade - High Slot (Shield suits get CPU upgrades as utility, and Armor suits get PG upgrades as utility, to make their respective tank stronger)
Shield Rechargers and Energizers - Low Slot (Tank Support modules)
Armor Repairers and Reactive Plates - High slots (Tank support modules)
[tl;dr]:
Increase CPU/PG on tank modules, more PG on armor and more CPU on shields
Move utility modules to make sense
On a final note, I believe these changes would solve dual tanking, and bring diversity to the game.
I hope this would make the game more fun, as in the end, every suggestion I make is there to make the game more fun for everyone 
-Cat Merc, the overlord of all humans
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7216
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 13:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
These stats I'm using are assuming that electronics and engineering are maxed out.
Anyone thinks it should be for level III?
Or not at all?
These two skills make this really difficult to balance right.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7216
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 13:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Those numbers are good but they are a little to high... 3 enhanced armor plates on a adv suit take most of the PG away.
Look above for the post.
I'm just not sure what would be a good balance point.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7216
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 13:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:A solution I have always favoured is tweaking HP modules to take up large amounts of PG and utility modules to take up primarily CPU. That way, there's an effective limit on the amount of tanking you can do and it encourages the use of utility modules.
That is also a possibility.
But I also like the idea of low slot utility modules taking more PG, while high slot utility modules take more CPU.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7217
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 13:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Cat Merc wrote:These stats I'm using are assuming that electronics ane engineering are maxed out.
Anyone thinks it should be for level III?
Or not at all?
These two skills make this really difficult to balance right. Without time to pump out some math!
I put in an in between solution, assuming that the user has engineering and electronics to level III.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7217
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 13:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:CSE: 65/7
CAP: 33/13
ASE: 46/5
AAP: 23/9
BSE: 32/4
BAP: 16/6
*Tweaking*
Could you explain your numbers?
I had a method creating mine.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7219
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 13:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Arx Ardashir wrote:I support a lot of this except for the moving of tank support modules like armor reppers and shield rechargers. I understand what you're trying to do, but I don't think that letting someone stack a lot of HP and then stack a lot of regen on top is good idea. It's up to the individual merc to choose between buffer and rep.
More diverse and pertinent choices are needed though, to dissuade dual tanking. Dual tanking shouldn't be impossible, though, just an inefficient choice when compared to other support options.
It will still be that way.
Also, I see your point, so I will amend the moving of repairers, rechargers and energizers.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7219
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 13:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Broonfondle Majikthies wrote:Personally the existing extenders and plates already have huge penalties.
I know I run a Min Assault so its different but I simply can't play well loaded up with complex plates and extenders
My shields are naturally low so I almost always loose them between engagements - and 10s regen delay is a long time, and thats with nothing added.
Because my shields go down my armour always takes a hit, so I need both the ability to withdraw quickly and also recover the lost armour fast.
I tried a complex plate once and it was simply unplayable (for my style admittedly) as I couldn't get to cover fast enough - so I took more damage - so I had to spend longer waiting for the reps to catch up.
Only at proto level can I realistically use complex extenders and avoid hitting the depleted regen time. But that feels too 'Caldari' plus still not very impressive, and its only 1 flux away from being rendered useless - so again I stick to reps and balancing plates / mobility.
Why nerf the mods anyway? why not simply make the other mods better. (Although scan mods on scouts is pretty cool as is in the right situation). I'm also surprised CCP didn't increase the repair mods in line with the plate buff.
As to moving the mods I don't see why they should. The suggested slot movements you've listed don't make any sense. Gal's have low slots. Cal's have high's but your abdicating moving them around so they can actually use less of them.
And switching the 'support' mods to the opposite ends seems like an excust to both have your cake and eat it - 900 armour plus reps / 500 shields and still regen sooner and faster.
Well, you might want to consider that Minmatar have the lowest CPU/PG.
Gallente, Caldari and Amarr can all do quite a bit of dual tanking.
The other mods are already quite powerful, making them better could very easily break stuff.
It's just that brick tanking > everything.
Give players the option to have more HP/Damage, and they will usually take it over anything else.
As far as moving the modules, that's the point.
An example from EVE: Gallente interceptors can use medium slots (same as our high slots) to fit webifiers, warp disruptors and afterburners.
Given a choice between tank and utility modules, tank wins 99% of the time, unless the utility modules become game breaking.
As far as rechargers and repairers, I already changed that.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7225
|
Posted - 2014.03.08 15:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Marc Rime wrote:Is the ability to dual tank really a problem? It's a fairly recent phenomenon despite being possible (and viable) since beta. To me that suggests the rise in popularity of dual tanks is a mere symptom of some other problem... For some reason people suddenly prioritise max EHP over everything else -- my guess it is because of the shortened TTK (and weapon damage preventing movement).
Yes, it is a problem.
Now that mercs have tasted the blood of eHP, they're going to consume it all the time.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7307
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 15:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Those numbers are good but they are a little to high... 3 enhanced armor plates on a adv suit take most of the PG away.
Ah, I almost forgot!
I didn't remember why when I replied to this comment, but I moved PG modules to high slots.
What I wanted is that if you use an ADV suit, you will have to have a mix of STD and ADV tank modules.
Or a PRO requires you to have a mix of PRO and ADV modules.
But if you use a PG upgrade (or CPU upgrade in the case of shields), you can bump up the level of your modules at the cost of a slot.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7315
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 19:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:I think the real issue is not lack of diversity in dual tanking, but lack of diversity in high slots.
Kin cats & Armour reps would be far more suited to high slots, and would have helped address the damage mod "issue" that now sees us punished with even less diversity.
Edit: oh and one of the two capacity mods in the highs too. Haven't decided which one.
Unless those modules are absurd, people will choose eHP any day.
Besides, armor reps in the high slots?
Do you seriously want me to run around in a suit with an absurd amount of armor AND reps that beat any shield suit?
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7315
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 19:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kane Fyea wrote:Really one of the best ways to help stop dual tanking is for CCP to release more useful high slots that aren't related to shields. Also wouldn't this gimp the Amarr Assault seeing that it is meant for dual tanking?
It's not meant for dual tanking.
They just didn't get to rebalancing them.
If you look at scouts and heavies, they're the exact opposite of dual tankers, they have the highest amount of armor and lowest amount of shields.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7315
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 19:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kane Fyea wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Kane Fyea wrote:Really one of the best ways to help stop dual tanking is for CCP to release more useful high slots that aren't related to shields. Also wouldn't this gimp the Amarr Assault seeing that it is meant for dual tanking? It's not meant for dual tanking. They just didn't get to rebalancing them. If you look at scouts and heavies, they're the exact opposite of dual tankers, they have the highest amount of armor and lowest amount of shields. Then what are they for then? In eve Amarrians are the huge armor tankers but the gallente decided to take that spot for dust. Are they supposed to armor tank? If so they are gimped compared to gallente suits since they can armor tank better while still being faster then Amarr suits. The only thing that the amarr suit has that makes it somewhat worthwhile is the reduction to heat build up for laser weapons.
How are they better armor tankers?
They have around 50 armor HP over a Gallente.
Gallente - Regenerators
Amarr - eHP
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7317
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 20:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:Personally I don't see a problem with dual tanking being a thing but what is the problem is the lack of other options that have any significance.
As things look for 1.8 it will look like that only thing useful for high slots will be shield modules as damage mods and melee mods are inferior. As a Gallente player though I would gladly give up my shield modules in exchange for putting dampeners or biotics in my high slots. This would allow me the ability to make other choices like a well dampened assault suit or a high sprint speed heavy.
Dual tanking isn't the problem, the lack of meaningful options is.
-Minmatar scouts are described as hand-to-hand specialists but would never use Myofibril Stimulants because it directly competes with their logical tank source.
-Amarr are supposed to be endurance runners but Cardiac Regulators are low slots and they don't wan to give up their tank.
-The Gallente make frequent use of afterburners in EVE and the Dust equal is Kinetic Catalyzers but they are low slots so they disrupt tank and have very difficult fitting requirements.
-The Caldari scout would make the best use of Precision Enhancers but they interfere with shield tanking.
-Passive scan modules in general aren't worth much to anyone other than a scout as base scan ranges are so short and the bonuses aren't enough to make up for it.
-Codebreakers are Gallente tech but not Gallente would ever use them because they are low slots and yet its the Minmatar that gets suit bonuses to hacking.
-Where is any Engineering modules? Currently we only have PG upgrades while Electronics has profile damps, precision enhancers, range amps, and codebreakers.
It is a problem.
People WILL take eHP over any other option, unless the eHP path is simply stupid and gimps them.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7317
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 20:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kane Fyea wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Kane Fyea wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Kane Fyea wrote:Really one of the best ways to help stop dual tanking is for CCP to release more useful high slots that aren't related to shields. Also wouldn't this gimp the Amarr Assault seeing that it is meant for dual tanking? It's not meant for dual tanking. They just didn't get to rebalancing them. If you look at scouts and heavies, they're the exact opposite of dual tankers, they have the highest amount of armor and lowest amount of shields. Then what are they for then? In eve Amarrians are the huge armor tankers but the gallente decided to take that spot for dust. Are they supposed to armor tank? If so they are gimped compared to gallente suits since they can armor tank better while still being faster then Amarr suits. The only thing that the amarr suit has that makes it somewhat worthwhile is the reduction to heat build up for laser weapons. How are they better armor tankers? They have around 50 armor HP over a Gallente. Gallente - Regenerators Amarr - eHP 3 lows vs 4 at proto (Gallente able to equip either more tank or more rep.) and Amarr suits are quite a bit slower (I believe over 1 m/s slower then gallente). Sure I might have a little bit more HP (Woo hoo probably not even 100 hp more then gallente) but I'm quite a bit slower then you and dont have as much reps as you. (Unless you decided to use something other then armor plates and repairers or you only used armor plates) Also lets not forget that Amarr Assaults have the least amount of module slots out of any assault suit. Also lets mention how most of my proto fits (BTW I have CPU and PG upgrades to level 4) still have to use a cpu or pg enhancer to be able to fit it effectively so not only do I have the least mod slots out of the assault suits but I have to waste one of them on a CPU/PG enhancer to fit my suit effectively. Also with what you're trying to do you pretty much make my 3 high slots pretty useless since I wouldn't be able to fit shields and armor effectively. (And I sure as hell wont use over nerfed damage mods. Seriously theres a reason why no one used enhanced damage mods)
Slots - Same as Gallente on scout (2/4)
No, it's not 1m/s, it's closer to 0.3m/s
1-3hp/s is hardly going to make a difference. (MUCH less than 100 HP would)
The Assault slots went unchanged because CCP didn't touch those, again, look at the heavies and scouts, they have equal slots with the other races.
And if you're complaining about CPU/PG on an Amarr suit, then you're doing it wrong.
I'm literally using everything proto on my Amarr Assault and still have fitting room left.
Viziam Scrambler Rifle, Viziam Scrambler Pistol, Gauged Hives, Core Locus, etc'.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7317
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 21:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
The Robot Devil wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
And if you're complaining about CPU/PG on an Amarr suit, then you're doing it wrong.
I'm literally using everything proto on my Amarr Assault and still have fitting room left.
Viziam Scrambler Rifle, Viziam Scrambler Pistol, Gauged Hives, Core Locus, etc'.
Any mod that gives CPU/GP is usually a bad sign. If you have to use two just to fit something then you are wasting your ISK.
None of those on my Amarr Assault.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
General Tso's Alliance
7332
|
Posted - 2014.03.11 19:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Verek Locusti wrote:Texs Red wrote:
Dual tanking isn't the problem, the lack of meaningful options is.
-Minmatar scouts are described as hand-to-hand specialists but would never use Myofibril Stimulants because it directly competes with their logical tank source.
-Amarr are supposed to be endurance runners but Cardiac Regulators are low slots and they don't wan to give up their tank.
-The Gallente make frequent use of afterburners in EVE and the Dust equal is Kinetic Catalyzers but they are low slots so they disrupt tank and have very difficult fitting requirements.
-The Caldari scout would make the best use of Precision Enhancers but they interfere with shield tanking.
-Passive scan modules in general aren't worth much to anyone other than a scout as base scan ranges are so short and the bonuses aren't enough to make up for it.
-Codebreakers are Gallente tech but not Gallente would ever use them because they are low slots and yet its the Minmatar that gets suit bonuses to hacking.
-Where is any Engineering modules? Currently we only have PG upgrades while Electronics has profile damps, precision enhancers, range amps, and codebreakers.
-I'd rather keep them in my high slots. If I'm playing my role well I'm approaching people undetected (not being shot), getting kills before red dots can retaliate (not being shot), and hauling ass if more opposition shows up (not being shot...too much). Having the extra shields would be useful, but I see it as a choice on scouts (especially with higher ttk and cloaks most likely, hopefully, letting us to occasionally avoid dying) between tank for a more aggressive play style or one that's made more for utility/versatility than pure attack. -Agree -Don't agree, don't play EVE but it seems to me kinetic catalyzers are in low slots precisely to disrupt tank, the speed penalty is meant to be there, you have to decide if you want reps or plates, and if you want plates how much speed you're willing to give up, having kincats in high slots would essentially eliminate the speed penalty for armor tankers (and possibly make them as fast or faster than shield tankers with less eHP). -Same as above, seems made to force a choice between utility and tank, which is a problem right now because of how extra eHP overshadows many utility modules (and the utility modules often not being effective enough for their cost vs tank). -Agree -Seems right, gallente can fit more codebreakers than the minmatar can. As for the bonus, *shrug* we've still got a bonus for caldari weapons, when we get more equipment in the game I assume our bonuses will be changed to favor whatever minmatar tech we get. -EWAR/active modules somewhere down the roadmap?
While I don't necessarily agree with kin cats moving to high slots (and I have considered this while making the thread), you have to remember that kin cats only increase the sprint speed, not movement speed or strafe speed.
Now consider that plates have double the penalty on strafe than what is displayed, and you can see how it only helps, but doesn't negate the speed penalty.
Oh and in EVE it works the same too, plates reduce speed but afterburners increase them.
Gallente ships also tend to be the second fastest after the Minmatar, unlike now where they're matching with Caldari.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
7712
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Womp womp womp
meow?
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST514514
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